Bekijk volle/desktop versie : How to use the scholar's disagreement about 'leaving prayers" against the extreme T..



25-07-2008, 00:43
Bismillahi Ar-Rahmani Ar-Rahim,

Note that the debate is about someone whose religion is originally Islam, and he claims it and follows it, but then fell into some aspects of major Shirk.

And with this debate you will know how to refute their claim when they said: "knowing ignorance to be an invalid excuse in the root of Islam, is related to the root of Islam".

Therefore they called everyone who thinks ignorance to be an excuse in Major Shirk a Kafir, because he does not have the root of Islam.

And therefore, they make Takfeer on the ones who refrain from making Takfeer on this person, because since he negated the root of Islam, then they are not making Takfeer on the one who does not have the root of Islam, therefore they are Kuffar, and so on.

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Him: The one who does not make Takfeer on this Mushrik is just a Kafir, and he is not excused with Ta'weel or ignorance or anything.

Me: Can you explain to me why? Point by point.. so let's see point #1.

Him: 1- He does not make Takfeer on a worshipper of Taghout, which means he does not reject Taghout.

Me: Is the one who leaves prayer a worshipper of Allah or a worshipper of Taghout?

Him: Niether.

Me: Well, I will not enter an arguement with you about it, lest prolong this debate, but let me ask you another thing. The one who insults Allah and clearly denies His existence, and declares he is an atheist and worships nothing, is his Kufr related to the root of Islam like major Shirk? And must a Muslim make Takfeer on him, otherwise he will be a Kafir like him?

Him: Yes for sure, it is the same, and who does not make Takfeer on him is a Kafir.

Me: So is this person who insults Allah and denies His existence and declared his atheism considered a worshipper of Allah or a worshipper of Taghout?

Him: (after thinking).. he worships Taghout.

Me: That's good. So let's agree that who does not worship Allah , or in other words, who disbelieves in Allah is indeed worshipping Taghout, whether it is his desire or Shaytaan, right?

Him: Yes.

Me: Therefore the one who leaves prayer is a worshipper of Taghout, yet the scholars differed about his Kufr.

Him: But major Shirk is related to the root of Islam.

Me: And leaving prayer with knoweldge is not related to the root of Islam? If not, then why would it negate it and drives its doer outside the fold of Islam?

Him: But major Shirk by itself is related to the root of Islam, but prayers are not.

Me: See my friend, when I spoke about "prayer" I added "with knowledge".. so I put a condition here, and with this condition it is related to the root of Islam, that is why the one who leaves it, even if he believes it is Wajib and he is a sinner, and he does not deny it, he will be a Kafir.

Him: Ok, but the one who does not know what Shirk is, is not a Muslim.

Me: And what if he does know it is a Shirk and it drives the person outside Islam, but he got confused about the impedements of Takfeer?

Him: He is a Kafir.

Me: Why?

Him: This is the second reason: 2- Who does not make Takfeer on the Mushrikeen, has negated the Ijma' (i.e. agreement) of the Ummah, and the Qur'an of Allah.

Me: But this person is not included in this, as he does know that this action is a major Shirk, and he does believe that who does it is a Mushrik, and he makes a general Takfeer on its perpetrators, but as I said, when it comes to individula's Takfeer, he has some troubles in the impedements of Takfeer made on those who claim Islam, therefore he thought ignorance can be an excuse, due to his misunderstanding of evidences, so he would keep judging this person with the original Hukm, which is Islam, and says: He will not be a Kafir until the Hujjah (i.e. evidence) is explained clearly to him.

Him: He is still a Kafir becuase he is negating the Ijma' of the Ummah that ignorance is not an excuse

Me: So this thing is known by Ijma' only? Therefore who did not hear about this Ijma' can still be excused?

Him: Also known by Qur'an and Sunnah.

Me: And who did not hear about all of that? say a new Muslim, will he still be a Muslim?

Him: Dumbfounded.

27-07-2008, 02:42


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27-07-2008, 23:13
wie is de schrijver hiervan? wie neemt deel aan dit gesprek hierboven?

28-07-2008, 00:51
Een bro van een engels forum

28-07-2008, 22:50


en wat is zijn kennis?
waar heeft hij gestudeerd?

30-07-2008, 20:33
dat weet ik niet, maar hij is lid van al firdaws forum, kijk daar maar